Kevin: you know what else is weird
Kevin: marriage.
Kevin: Yeah, there's a good chance I'll be married by the time my little brother (I have one, too; he's 8 or 9-ish as well) is driving.
Alice: wow
Alice: yeah marriage is weire
Alice: d
Kevin: in a statistical sense, anyway
Kevin: yeah
Alice: how d you know for sure?
Alice: im too skeptical for marriage
Alice: but im starting to feel like its not THAT much of a wonder
Alice: even last year i would have been like, hahaha marriage, no way
Kevin: know what for sure?
Alice: that the person you marry is the person you want to be married to forever
Kevin: ah
Kevin: I think that's sort of the point.
Alice: if/when i get married, i do not want a divorce, i mean unless im getting abused or soemthing
Kevin: You don't know. But you make it so.
Alice: yeah
Alice: thats what i think too
Alice: you make it so
Kevin: I mean, isn't that the whole point?
Alice: i dont think that there is someone out there for me, like some One guy or something....like some people do,-- somepeople i would say thinkt aht marriage is more like finding your soulmate--some fated soul meant for you-- or whatever...and in the case that you dont find him or her, then well, you love the one youre with
Kevin: Culturally, there's nothing wrong with living together, so marriage isn't about sex anymore. (note: I still disapprove of extramarital sex; I'm speaking culturally, here)
Alice: yes i know
Kevin: So why the heck would you go and get married if you knew you could just a divorce if you felt like it?
Kevin: The point of marriage is saying, "I love you enough that I'm willing to work through *all* our differences to be with you, and care for you."
Alice: yes
Alice: i agree
Alice: but i think there are some cases in which a divorce is necessary
Kevin: Which is the awesome level of committment that makes for equally awesome sex, I might add.
Alice: of course
Kevin: well, sort of and sort of not, actually, but I can go on about that later.
Alice: hehe
Alice: sort of not ay
Kevin: If someone changes drastically to the point that they truly aren't "the [wo]man you married", then that's different
Kevin: But the problem is when people find that the person they married is no longer the person they *thought* they married
Alice: yes
Alice: and mayn people will rationalize
Alice: their choice
Kevin: yes
Alice: and wheee divorces everywhere
Kevin: also equally misguided is when someone changes themselves and no longer "loves" their partner.
Kevin: Which to a good extent stems from a misunderstanding of love.
Kevin: oh, on the sex thing
Kevin: if you're married
Kevin: I won't say that you can't have better sex with an extramarital partner
Kevin: but you can never make love to another and have it be as good
Alice: do you think there is only one person you can love
Kevin: assuming of course that we're talking about the good marriage and not the various misguided things out there
Kevin: that depends on your definition of "love"
Kevin: but I think I know what you mean
Kevin: I've thought a lot about it.
Alice: do y9u think there is only one correct definition of love
Kevin: no
Alice: yeah
Kevin: But if you're saying "one person you can love" then, under the broad definition, the answer is obviously no
Kevin: quickie example disproof: I love both of my parents.
Kevin: I was thinking
Kevin: I would like to have a good, deep level of intimacy wiht many women.
Kevin: I mean, really deep
Alice: yeah
Kevin: But that means that if I got married, the only real difference with my wife would be that I spent more time with her (if for no other reason that that we lived in the same house)
Kevin: and that we would have sex
Alice: yeah
Alice: so what does that mean
Kevin: And, heck, that's almost an insult.
Alice: do you limit your relationships to other women then
Kevin: I think the big point is that it's exclusive
Alice: ve thought a lot about this too
Alice: yeah
Alice: people want to feel special
Kevin: I mean, if I say, I'm willing to devote myself to you and drop the level of intimacy I have for everyone else
Kevin: *just so* you're the only one
Alice: that it something unique about them, not just rtime and circumstance that put them with their loved one/ lover
Kevin: Because I care enough about you to make you special.
Alice: hm that is interesting
Kevin: yes
Kevin: And I can still have deep relationships with other women
Kevin: just not quite as deep
Alice: right
Alice: what is too intimate though
Kevin: like, no completely ultimate soul-to-soul everything-and-I-mean-everything-really-everything-here heart-to-hearts
Alice: yeah
Kevin: confidante, advice, consolation, etc. are fine
Kevin: to the extent that my wife allows it
Kevin: and, no, I'm not talking about whipped-by-jealous-wife, I'm talking about preservation of that uniqueness.
Alice: but then its like, why marry? when i can have many intimate relationships with differnet people-- what if you think you can love anyone given the time and opportunity....and then why limit it, when you can love more than one...but then again there is something great about having only one...i dont know, its hard to put all my thoughts into sensical words- especialyl concisely
Alice: yes uniqueness
Alice: but its like forced uniqueness almost
Kevin: well, it is and it isn't
Alice: yeah
Kevin: because there is the sex part
Kevin: and, if you'll forgive me for dipping a little physical analogical here,
Kevin: there's the whole "we are one" aspect
Kevin: The idea that everything I have is ultimately devoted to you, above other people
Alice: yes
Alice: so you think sex is special
Kevin: One can live to give comfort and whatever else not to other people
Alice: or is taht something you make special as well
Kevin: but when one has priority over others
Kevin: as long as that is always known, and intimacy is preserved, there is space for others
Kevin: by "preserved intimacy" I mean that my wife would have access to all knowledge about any relationships of mine with other women (barring whatever was necessary for confidentiality purposes, of course)
Kevin: I think that sex was created by God to be special
Kevin: but that it can be cheapened easily
Kevin: and has been
Alice: ah
Kevin: to the extent that, today, one must make it special, again.
Alice: then what are your thoughts about physical intimacy in general, not necessarily vaginal sex
Alice: is that also special
Alice: only reserved for love
Kevin: "physical intimacy". ok, what are we talking about here
Kevin: ok
Kevin: like, "oral sex isn't copulation so it's ok outside of marriage", or like "can I hold hands when I date?"
Alice: physical intimacy as in everything physically intimate between more than friends kissing up to vaginal intercourse
Alice: hahaha
Kevin: Well, the two extremes are what I just stated.
Alice: yes
Alice: i just read them
Kevin: I suppose anal sex would be more of an extreme than oral, actually
Kevin: but holding hands is... no, I have a more extreme version. "is it ok to make eyes at one another?"
Kevin: haha
Alice: well i assume that once in marriage hopefully you will reserve all physicall intimacy for your One that you have designated, but even not talking abotu marriage, there are people who love each other who are not married, and then what is too much-- for instance, fiancees... or whatever.
Alice: hahah
Alice: make eyes
Alice: that is a goodone
Kevin: Yeah, it is kind of a sticky issue. Because there are things you do with a lover (when I say "lover" I am very rarely referring to sex) that you don't with friends.
Alice: yes
Kevin: that would be considered betrayal outside marriage
Kevin: but I think it is betrayal because it is betrayal of that uniqueness thing
Kevin: so for "low level" stuff I tend to say it's ok in a dating relationship
Kevin: but I am absolutely against sex (whatever your definition; to be safe we'll take an extreme and say "real" penis-in-the-vagina sex) before marriage
Kevin: haha that sounds funny, btw
Kevin: the real question is, "Where does one stop and the other start?"
Kevin: and lots of people have lots of views on that
Kevin: a lot of people will say that you have to "find your own limits"
Alice: i tend to think that marriage is a cultural thing, soemthing for taxes, something for a "healthy family life" (when we talk about kids)....and i cant say i disagree...i mean, i wouldnt want to raise a child without the father and i think both parents are the ideal family situation, but that might be because i was raised in this culture...i dont know/ ...but we want marriage to be important, and attach all sorts of special meanings to it...nevermind im babbling, i will collect my thoughts before i clarify ...at some point
Alice: where does one what stop and the other what begin? different kinds of sexes?
Alice: just physical intimacies then?
Kevin: and when I say people, for the most part I'm talking Christians. For people who don't have a problem with extramarital sex, it kind of doesn't matter.
Alice: right
Alice: obviously
Kevin: I'm not sure about the whole "find your own limits" thing
Kevin: I can appreciate it from a certain standpoint
Kevin: if you want to draw your line at holding hands, that's fine with me
Kevin: I'd say it's probably awfully short of the mark, but "better safe than sorry" never killed anyone
Alice: yes
Kevin: but whenever you tell someone to make their own rules, more often then not it ends up being a 'no rules' situation, or possibly with absurd rules akin to "you are not allowed to hit yourself on the head with a ball peen hammer while eating horse crap"
Alice: but if you set your limit at say, upper body action or something, then what exactly would make that a "sorry" situation? like if you suddenly decided that oh crap your limit was too far? and too far for what?
Alice: hahaha
Alice: yeah
Alice: good ol made up rules
Kevin: too far for jeopardizing the uniqueness factor